Home

Mother and Baby Homes Bill

colm

Member
A thread for the Mother and Baby Homes Bill
One of the Biggest stories in the History of the state and possibly the one that will topple the Government as this will surely grow legs
Also the final nail on the Green Party I would assume who now have been shown to be the Government kick stands they are for a few bike lanes lol
Absolutely Scandalous stuff
Paddyland in full flight


Well done to Holly Cairns who really put the effort in,a very impressive performance for someone i never really watched before.
Even Loony Barrett had a good say at it

Fuck everyone who voted for this bill 100%,absolute scum
If You ever wanted to know that Ireland couldnt give zero fooks about its Women and Children well dont forget this one
I also see Green Members are leaving in their droves
That might be a bit late as You sold us all out a while back so now for me I would hazard a guess that aside the Shinners that it will be The Social Democrats will be the other opposition to grow legs but sure time will tell.
Politics aside,well done to any Politician who spoke out against this bill
Child Trafficking facilitated by the state where allegedly Politicians or there Family Members gained riches bye assisting in the selling of Irish Babies to other Countries "Child Trafficking in my book" anyway here is a thread for this topic and hopefully some people will contribute

Disgusting Stuff even for paddyland where we are used to been fooked over every time
PRICKS
 
S

StarryPlough01

Guest
The controversial Mother and Baby homes bill may have been signed into Irish law by the country's president Michael D Higgins but the debate around it hasn't gone away.
There remains plenty of friction over whether those seeking information about themselves will have to wait 30 years until their records are unsealed .
Such homes were established in the 19th and 20th centuries to house women and girls who became pregnant outside of marriage.
Their children more often than not adopted or spent time in orphanages.
It is a both a confused and confusing issue.
At its heart are sometimes conflicting rights - including privacy, governed by different pieces of legislation, with worries about General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) thrown in for extra measure.
The Mother and Baby Homes Commission, which is due to issue its final report on Friday, was set up under the 2004 Commission of Investigations Act, which says that records must be kept under wraps for 30 years.
Part of the thinking behind this act was to cut costs and allow those giving evidence to a commission to do so without challenge and without legal representation.
Their evidence, often given in private and confidentially, was simply listened to.
Now that the Mother and Baby Homes bill is law, the estimated 60,000 digitalised files on the database of the commission, largely gathered from the records of Mother and Baby Homes over its five-year investigation, will be handed over to the National Archive and the child and family agency Tusla.
But campaigners and some of those seeking more information about their own life story, including their natural mother and their adoption, believe that sealing the records will deny them an opportunity to find out more about themselves and their history.
Ministers have repeated that it was never their intention to allow a dark period of Irish history to continue to be swept under the carpet or to deny people their rights.
They believe that with cross-party parliamentary support it should be possible very quickly to allay the concerns of those affected.
But those seeking their records are far from convinced and this is an issue that may well still end up in the courts.

_115074494_tuamholywater.md.jpg

Mother and baby homes controversy 'has not gone away'

BBC News NI's Shane Harrison looks at the fallout as Ireland's president signs it a new bill into law.
www.bbc.com



Fintan Dunne

February 9 at 1:26 PM

SINN FEIN TRANSFERS KILL OFF KATHERINE ZAPPONE'S DAIL BID

- by Fintan Dunne


"Solidarity PBP TD Paul Murphy has just picked up 3,444 transfers from Sinn Féin's Seán Crowe in Dublin South-West. By comparison independent TD Katherine Zappone received just 433 of Crowe's transfers.

"That second count outcome gives Murphy a 3,000 vote boost in the race for the last seat - a gap Zappone is very unlikely to close.

"As Minister for Children, Katherine Zappone badly mishandled the Commission of Investigation - which is yet to report after five years. She also oversaw a Fine Gael stonewalling of survivors justice and truth rights.

"In the final week of campaigning, Mother and Baby Homes survivors protested in Dublin South-West - with placards urging voters to DUMP ZAPPONE. And the wise electorate of Dublin SW have agreed.

"Good riddance Zappone.

"For a feminist, you were no help to our Irish First Mothers.

https://www.Nm/groups/avoiceforfirstmothers/

'Magdalene survivor takes case to UN torture committee'

'State is being investigated over its treatment of Elizabeth Coppin (70) in landmark case'


38 minutes ago


Magdalene survivor takes case to UN torture committee
State is being investigated over its treatment of Elizabeth Coppin (70) in landmark case
www.irishtimes.com

By Kitty Holland Social Affairs Correspondent


"The UN Committee Against Torture has begun an investigation into the State’s treatment of Elizabeth Coppin (70) which could have implications for the State’s approach to historical abuse. It is a landmark case, being the first before the committee from a Magdalene survivor.

"Originally from Listowel, Co Kerry, Ms Coppin was born to an unmarried woman (19) in a Killarney mother-and-baby home in 1949.

[…]

"The Government was notified by the committee it was admitting Ms Coppin’s case on 20th January.

The Department of Foreign Affairs are taking the lead on co-ordinating a response and a number of departments will be required to provide input,” a Department of Justice spokesman said. “The deadline for providing a response is 20th May, 2020,” he added.

Cardinal Pell’s appeal of abuse conviction to be heard March 11-12
Feb 16, 2020

Cardinal Pell's appeal of abuse conviction to be heard March 11-12
Cardinal George Pell will have his last chance to have his conviction for sexually abusing two 13-year old choirboys overturned when his lawyers plead his case to the High Court of Australia March 11-12.
cruxnow.com

Michael Sainsbury
CATHOLIC NEWS SERVICE

"YANGON, Myanmar - Cardinal George Pell will have his last chance to have his conviction for sexually abusing two 13-year old choirboys overturned when his lawyers plead his case to the High Court of Australia March 11-12.

"But the full bench of Australia’s highest court - either five or all seven justices - will take several months, at least, to determine the fate of the former senior adviser to Pope Francis.

[…]

"If the High Court fails to overturn the verdict of a 12-person jury that found him guilty of four counts of sexual assault and one count of child rape, Pell, 78, will spend at least 32 more months in prison.

[…]

"Regardless of the High Court’s decision, Pell is facing at least three civil lawsuits brought against him for historical sexual abuse by people claiming to be victims or their families if they are deceased.

Starry:

Further, the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse's unredacted Final Report about Ballarat Diocese was delayed so it wouldn't prejudice George Pell's current or future criminal or civil proceedings. 60 pages of the report were redacted. This is about the paedophile ring in Ballarat - includes Australia's most infamous serial sex abuser Fr Gerald Ridsdale (65 known victims), etc.

George Pell boarded with Fr Ridsdale at St Alipius Presbytery, Ballarat. There was a paedophile ring at St Alipius Primary School (all the male teachers and chaplain Fr Gerald Ridsdale). As many as a third of students in a Grade 4 class at St Alipius Primary School later suicided.


https://twitter.com/SAFEIreland

Safe Ireland National Social Change Agency CLG@SAFEIreland
33m

This report exposes, yet again, the enormous prevalence and patterns of domestic violence in this country exacerbated by a pandemic that locked women’s and families down with their abuser.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EmdPKCoXYAAXsau?format=jpg&Name=medium


Safe Ireland National Social Change Agency CLG@SAFEIreland
21m
We need clarity now a- clarity of budget and resources, and clarity on how the government is planning to respond in a comprehensive and meaningful way to the enormous problem of domestic violence that this study has tracked.


Safe Ireland National Social Change Agency CLG@SAFEIreland
21m
The government consistently name-checks domestic and sexual violence as a priority concern. But calling something a priority means that it also has to be resourced and funded as a priority.


Safe Ireland National Social Change AgencyCLG@SAFEIreland


What this study also underscores is the enormous strains that domestic violence services throughout the country are under and have been under - since the start of this crisis, but in reality for years and decades.


'Domestic violence services report rise in first time calls by women'
By Ailbhe Conneely Social Affairs & Religion Corresponden
Updated / Tuesday, 10 Nov 2020 08:30
Increase in first time calls by women to abuse services

Nearly 3,500 women contacted a domestic violence service for the first time between March and August this year, according to a new report by Safe Ireland.

The report is based on data collected from 39 domestic violence services Nationwide.

…. Safe Ireland said at least 1,970 women and 411 children received support from a domestic violence service in that period.

…. The report shows that 575 women and 98 children - who had never as far as is known, contacted a domestic violence service before - contacted services every month in that time.
 
Successive Irish governments including the current government have been trying to prevent and divert the possibility of a statutory public inquiry. They are instruments of last resort because they break the political rule of never asking a question to which you don't know the answer.

The UN called on the Kenny Government to set up a full public inquiry into the Magdalene Laundries. Kenny's answer was to locate a suitably devout catholic dentist married to a former President, also a devout catholic, and charged him with coming up with a 'suitable narrative' by way of an Interdepartmental Report. That would not be a full public inquiry because the state has been historically up to its bollix in collusion with the catholic church and probably still is in some corners and government departments in particular.

Said devout and virtue filled catholic had tea with the nuns, complimented them on how nice they were, they allowed him a peek at selected files, which they then kept. The devout catholic senator then resigned from the senate on the day the report was published and ran away to hide in Rome, refusing to answer any questions from the media about his 'Interdepartmental Report'.

His wife the former President tried to talk up the latest pile of crap published by the latest Irish Government to deliberately fail to deal with these issues in Irish society, because any real look at it would point to a lot of collusion by people in authority and half the current Oireachtas would have had parents and grandparents involved in that collusion- a Stasi state captured by a cult is not something they want to admit to, or see an uncomfortable list of the colluders appear in public.

To give you an idea. In the latest report there is a mention of a 'Parliamentary Secretary' (all titles, no names as per usual Irish civil service drill) but there were only about four or five people it could possibly could have been, writing back and forth about the alarmingly high infant mortality rate at Bessborough. This was in February 1945 and the likeliest of the four or five PS's it could have been on departmental remit alone was one Erskine H Childers, subsequently 4th President of our Republic.

So the Irish state knew at Ministerial level of the issues around unusually high mortality in such homes, definitely as Bessborough, in February 1945. This is the reason why the Irish Government will do somersaults trying to prevent a full public inquiry. Because the breadth, width and height of collusion with catholic (and protestant) religious orders in suppressing information which indicates serious crimes may have been committed.

The crime of 'misprision of felony' was conveniently forgotten when transferring statutes between two criminal justice acts between the late 90s' and early 00's. One of the few times when a crime has been 'forgotten', and conveniently that was the main charge on which a cardinal, at least two bishops and a rake of clerics in orders could have been jailed.

This current government is as corrupt as all other governments before it in attempting to manage the problem away into a corner so they don't really have to recognise the extent of the Stasi state their parents and grandparents were involved in through a notable lack of ethic.
 

olli rehn

Member
The whole thing is a big mess now. The governments handling of the affair is a disaster. I can see them slipping on this banana skin.
I certainly will not vote for the Greens again.
I stick to SF.
 
OP
C

colm

Member
The whole thing is a big mess now. The governments handling of the affair is a disaster. I can see them slipping on this banana skin.
I certainly will not vote for the Greens again.
I stick to SF.

I have never voted for the Greens,but I can understand why some may have previously,although having sold us all out before I am stunned that some would vote for them again,It really is History repeating itself (a bit more sadistic and a pandemic thrown in for good measure).

Sinn Fein Yes I agree,but then You get to perhaps criminality or involved with criminals and maybe that stops people voting for them,but the reality is all the parties have been involved with crooks and there all as bad as each other.

just vote the opposition is all you can do in a very corrupt country as everyone in power will feed from the trough ultimately.

Can we even count 5 politicians that have not done so from all parties or independents who took a Ministerial role ?
(Tony Gregory immediately is exonerated but aside him who really ?)

vote the current robbing clowns out so they are kept on their toes and will give more the next time they get in,

if you don't do that you just have more of the same and next generation etc.

which is what we have

all about the pensions and expenses to them all otherwise this bill would never have been passed


disgraceful stuff
 

olli rehn

Member
I have never voted for the Greens,but I can understand why some may have previously,although having sold us all out before I am stunned that some would vote for them again,It really is History repeating itself (a bit more sadistic and a pandemic thrown in for good measure).

Sinn Fein Yes I agree,but then You get to perhaps criminality or involved with criminals and maybe that stops people voting for them,but the reality is all the parties have been involved with crooks and there all as bad as each other.

just vote the opposition is all you can do in a very corrupt country as everyone in power will feed from the trough ultimately.

Can we even count 5 politicians that have not done so from all parties or independents who took a Ministerial role ?
(Tony Gregory immediately is exonerated but aside him who really ?)

vote the current robbing clowns out so they are kept on their toes and will give more the next time they get in,

if you don't do that you just have more of the same and next generation etc.

which is what we have

all about the pensions and expenses to them all otherwise this bill would never have been passed


disgraceful stuff

Wait until it comes to decide about our pensions- they will screw us left, right and centre. The new pension commission will deliver its verdict next June...if we still have the same government...and it will probably advice to push up the pension age and bring down the rates of payment for the ordinary Joe Soap.
 
OP
C

colm

Member
Now that the Department of Children’s plan to seal the Mother and Baby Commission archive is so widely acknowledged to be wrongheaded that the President throws shade over it as he signs legislation, let’s try for some explanation of how this all happened.

Firstly, a reminder of exactly what the plan was from the Minister’s written answer to @GaryGannonTD from 29th Sept 2020.

“Those records shall remain sealed for 30 years”

This is to deal with any suggestions now being floated that there was never a plan to seal the archive.

ElPhSCtWkAA3-fT.md.jpg

But how did the Minister, who everyone acknowledges to be a person of good faith, end up the spokesman for a 30 year sealing of wronged people’s personal data?

It’s an important question because it prompts us to take an institutionalist view of power instead of a personal one.
Firstly, a statement of my general theory of the limits of Ministerial power.

They have two buttons on their desk, marked Go and Stop.

Ministers, like everyone, like being able to say they’re getting things done at work, so they love pressing Go.

But it is the unusual Minister- the strong personality or the grizzled old pro- who will look at a plan where years of preparatory work have been completed, where announcements have been made, where careers have been advanced and say

“Stop, we’re not doing that.”

Now Ministers come and go but institutions like government departments have long memories. So, in 2002 (18 years ago, and a v different society) the then Minister Michael McDowell’s Department took a conventional view on records when drafting the 2004 Commissions of Inquiry Act.

And, as chance would have it, an insight into then Minister McDowell’s opinion on sealing the records of this particular Commission of Inquiry (unforeseen in 2004) is available to us through the proposed, pro-secrecy amendments of Senator McDowell this month.

But that opinion wasn’t what drove the in-house Departmental belief that there was a provision to seal records for 30 years in the 2004 Act he passed.

That idea came from a conventional wisdom approach to interpreting the Act.

C’mere, I’ll show you what I mean
Here’s the clause of the 2004 Act that the Dept thinks created a 30 year seal.

This belief was widespread in officialdom.



But read it with me.


ElPoAFTWoAEWzke.md.jpg

Firstly, though this is not conclusive of anything, note the purpose of this section, written in little letters in the margin. It deals with “Availability of Records”

The opening thrust of intent is that this is about making records available, not sealing them.

But it’s not trying to determine the policy for availability of records for all purposes.What it’s doing is ensuring that Commission records will be treated in such a way that- no matter what- they will be examined and made available after 30 years under the National Archives Act

Think of it as a backstop for transparency- that 30 years is not a target for openness, it’s a deadline.

But if that’s so, why did all the officials read it as saying it sealed the records for 30 years?

Because- and I can’t stress enough the power of this phrase- That’s How It Has Always Been Done.

That’s the presumption of secrecy which Governments have applied to their records.

So when the Dept (and, it seems the Commission) saw a clause imposing the openness *requirement* after 30 years from the National Archives Act, they mentally classified it as being subject to the usual secrecy *policy*.

In short, as Senator Higgins correctly explained in her excellent contribution to this podcast, there was never a legal requirement for a 30 year seal.
Sorry, podcast link:

shack.md.png

Ep.383 A Stand For Truth Special - Tortoise ShackIt has been a tumultuous week that has seen Ireland’s legacy of Institutional Abuse come to the fore in both the public and political realm. On this crossover podcast, Dr Vicky Conway and Tony are joi…https://tortoiseshack.ie/ep-383-a-stand-for-truth-special/

Now, we should address the question of what if the 2004 Act had included a positive statement that its records were to remain sealed for 30 years.

Well, in that counter-factual circumstance, there would still be no legal bar on people seeking copies of records relating to them.

That’s because to blanket block access for 30 years would be to try to legislate to restrict the essence of an EU Law right.

Here’s the conventional statement on national laws that try to do that, from the European Data Protection Board: Image


That what the DPC told the Dept too.

We don’t know when the Minister found out they’d done that.

2001509_39_articlelarge_001_20FILE_20PHOTO_20Mother_20and_20Baby.md.jpg

Government breaking the law by sealing mother and baby homes records, says DPCChildren’s Minister Roderic O’Gorman said that his advice from the Attorney General was that access to the records had been explicitly restricted by ...https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40070054.html

And that’s why the President was right to both sign the Act, and to remark that people can always challenge a *policy* if they think it’s wrong.

As Gov TDs have bleated, this 2020 act doesn’t create a 30 year seal.

It’s the policy (which wasn’t in front of MDH) which tried that
So, if you’re wondering how Minister O’Gorman could have done this- or you’re in the Green Party or another govt party and you can’t understand how you ended up being asked to stand again victim’s rights, I invite you to take an institutionalist view;
Like a human body, most things in a Govt department are done without the specific and conscious direction of the Minister.

In the same way that your body pumps blood, sucks in air and blows it out, digests food etc without you having to make it.
And the institution will just carry on doing the same things unless the Minister consciously decides they have to change.

Unfortunately, historically, Ministers have responded more to pressure and criticism (we’ll call it heat) than to reasoned argument (call it light).
This week has seen lots of heat, but also a lot of light.

And that’s the best combination- that’s what makes things better.

Sign the uplift petition if you haven’t already, contact your TDs. That’s what makes the heat that will shine the light.
There are unpleasant creatures who are drawn to heat- on any subject- and will try to co-opt it.

They are allergic to light, to any sort of reasoned argument.

We can safely leave them by themselves in the dark where they belong.
To that end, all RTs are gratefully received and welcomed.
 
Top Bottom